Re: [RP] Let Justice be Served

[arthur_loxley]

Aye, again reinforcing that county law is irrelevant on the matter.

The discussion needs to be redirected towards what the endowment of humanity means if we are to argue anything. The HoP has said themselves a charge of contempt is within the CoA's jurisdiction since it is a special offence. It is only the due process clause of national law which could possibly stand in the way of this charge. Discuss.

[arthur_loxley]

Aye, again reinforcing that county law is irrelevant on the matter.

The discussion needs to be redirected towards what the endowment of humanity means if we are to argue anything. The HoP has said themselves a charge of contempt is within the CoA's jurisdiction since it is a special offence. It is only the due process clause of national law which could possibly stand in the way of this charge. Discuss.

Not necessarily. County laws deal with contempt on a county level in county courts. The CoA contempt law only applies to, as you have pointed out, a special offense.

[arthur_loxley]

Its not like i've had to explain this, as well as several others several times.

the CoA is not a Chester law system, it is above it.

As such it has no need to follow the chester legal system. It works in appeals as a overseeing institution, it is out side the chester system, it can change the cases in chester because of this.

It also can charge a body with contempt. It has that power, it did such. It did not state that it wanted to start a case, it did not need to.

Also, the continuance of this further points out that the coruption is county based founded in its justice. the fact that the CoA has been lenient really continues to shock me.

I would have pressed matters past this. Addressed the king, and requested that the offending judge be eradicated.

But i've got a short and brutal sense of intentional misdeeds with justices.

[arthur_loxley]

I don't ever recall any court that found someone in contempt of court ever having to file charges - merely passing a sentence. By refusing to do his duty required by the court of appeals to take care of something they are only required to do because of a simple flaw in the justice system Llewylyn appears to me to effectively also be in contempt.

I see no reason that charges be filed just to allow him to make a mockery of justice. Truthfully by acting this way he casts some doubt on his ability to perform his duty as an unbiased Judge, especially by refusing to serve his sentence in a fair ruling by a higher court. He took his stand against them and made his statement and got his point accross , so its time to pay for it properly.

Wolfaxe,

The reason behind the charge of obstruction is not in question, I admit that in the CoA Charter there is provision for such. My point is that there was no trial for this charge, no chance for my side to be said, no request for information on any mitigating thought / actions.

In short, The CoA has the right to up hold its charter and to pass 'charges' based on such, I question to its ability to pass a sentence without trial.

I understand the contempt of court charge needs to be utilized at times, but I think it's highly unfair that there isn't even a sidebar for the person who is being charged with contempt to explain his position. Surely the justices are willing to hear an explanation for the behavior.

[arthur_loxley]

One must also figure that Llewelyn is a sitting Judge. He can not file a charge of contempt or obstruction against himself, nor ajudicate it.

This means the PP has to file the case and the the Duke has to replace the Judge for the ajudication of the case.

So it is not Llewelyn blocking this, but rather the PP and Duke not complying by fulfilling the proper actions.

Llewelyn is merely raising the query. Sorry for the monkey wrenches, but I noted these were overlooked in most of the conversation on this.

[arthur_loxley]

I understand the contempt of court charge needs to be utilized at times, but I think it's highly unfair that there isn't even a sidebar for the person who is being charged with contempt to explain his position. Surely the justices are willing to hear an explanation for the behavior.

There are certain rules of conduct expected from every participant who enters the CoA halls. These are quite clear, as well as the consequences. Each Judge in our country, whether on a national or county level should be aware of this as part of his/her responsibilities. Judge Llewelyn was explicitly told the consequences of not following the CoA mandate. If he disagreed with it, there was ample time for him to raise an objection and explain his position before the charge of obstruction of justice was levied against him, which he did not do. Instead he disregarded the mandate completely.

Whatever his reasonings or explanation, he is guilty of obstruction of justice. His actions were not made in ignorance of the law but with full knowledge of the consequences.

[arthur_loxley]

So there was an opportunity for him to address his actions? As he indicates, there was no opportunity to offer mitigating factors.

I am not here to place blame. I am hoping that we can come to some resolution because Llewylyn's contempt of court charge isn't the first one that has been wrought with controversy. Surely we can be compassionate enough to allow a sidebar between the lead justice and the person being cited with contempt.

[arthur_loxley]

It seems to me that many are verily demanding that Llewlylyn violate Chester Law. Good for you, Llewlylyn, if you've decided to hold out, until you can run a court case.

Or, you negligent violator of all thing's decent, right and honorable, depending on how you look at it of course.

Rot Bottom

[arthur_loxley]

Rot, I didn't mean to offend you. I have to admit I don't know all the details of the case. I just think it's important to be able to explain one's behavior before judgment is meted out. If the explanation doesn't warrant the behavior and a panel of judges agree that contempt was shown, then there is no room to complain.

[arthur_loxley]

The difference is, he would be enacting the case IN CHESTER, period.

Chester Law does not allow for any judgment without trial, period.

The law in Chester County that says -

5. All evidence for any charge is to be passed to the Public Prosecutor for investigation. The Public Prosecutor must lodge all cases brought to him in the courts. If insufficient evidence is supplied by the accusing party or parties, or if the accusing party fails to testify the case will then be dismissed unless there is reason to suspect malfeasance against the witnesses by or on behalf of the accused.

is equally as important and must be protected and upheld as the law there that says -

1. Anyone found guilty of a Crime Against the State is to be sentenced under Section 9 paragraph 2 of this Act. Where the offence has lead to the loss or misuse of monies or goods, restitution may also be applied as specified in Section 10 of this Act.

2. The offences that are considered Crimes Against the State are as follows:

a) Traitorousness. Traitorousness (or Treachery) is the Act of revolting or inciting a revolt against the lawfully elected Regent or County Council. An individual may be charged with either High or low Treason.

i) High Treason – the act of rebelling, raising, attempting to raise or inciting others to raise any force against the rightful Ruler or Regent of England.

It does not matter what the CoA commands, Llewylyn is in such a right to be fighting this, because he is being ordered to violate the law of the land he is a Councilor for. No one should be forced into that. Let Chester hold a trial on the issue, or let some other venue that does not have such a law or is further in sway of the CoA fulfill the demand.

Rot Bottom

[arthur_loxley]

What is the problem, really?

There is a trial to enact the penalty.

A suit is filed, the PP presents the COA penalty as an indictment and the judge passes sentence and applies the COA penalty.
The evidence is there and presented.
If the individual who is being penalized wants to make a plea let them.
The evidence is irrefutable.
The COA determination of contempt or obstruction is the evidence.
The COA justices are witnesses.
If the PP wishes they can add the COA charter article giving the COA the power to enact penalties for contempt and obstruction as evidence.

Article 9 – Procedural Penalties

Those guilty of Contempt of Court shall be fined up to 10 pounds per incident.

Those guilty of obstruction of justice shall be imprisoned for one day. Furthermore those guilty of obstruction of justice may not appear in court representing another person for a 30 day period. These penalties will be laid after the case is decided.
If a county Public Prosecutor or Judge is charged with contempt, the Count(ess) of said county must appoint a new Public Prosecutor to file charges. The accused may no longer hold position of Public Prosecutor or Judge, until the case of contempt is resolved.

In all instances these cases will be handled by the County courts

I think this is being blown out of proportion. It does not violate the Chester legal corpus and the Chester county judge should have no problem with it.

[arthur_loxley]

Please refer to the following Article from the Current Court of Appeals Charter outlining Contempt of Court:

Article 9 – Criminal Offenses Against the Court
Obstruction of justice – Situation where an individual tampers with evidence, bears false witness or otherwise obstructs the normal course of justice this include officials who use their position to attempt to circumvent or manipulate the valid judicial process of the Court of Appeals.

Contempt of court – Situation where an individual fails to show proper respect and behaviour in court. Contempt of court includes but is not limited to –
Use of foul and/or degrading language in court
Failure to respond to a court summons
Disrupting court proceedings

These are considered criminal offences.

Article 10 – Procedural Penalties
Those guilty of Contempt of Court shall be fined up to 10 pounds per incident.
Those guilty of obstruction of justice shall be imprisoned for one day. Furthermore those guilty of obstruction of justice may not appear in court representing another person for a 30 day period. These penalties will be laid after the case is decided.
If a county Public Prosecutor or Judge is charged with contempt or obstruction, the Count(ess) of said county must appoint a new Public Prosecutor to file charges. The accused may no longer hold position of Public Prosecutor or Judge, until the case of contempt is resolved.

In all instances these cases will be handled by the County courts.

A careful reading will show that anyone found guilty of obstruction of justice will be imprisoned for one day once the case is decided by the CoA. There are no provisions stated anywhere for a trial for any of these criminal offenses. It is left to the discretion of the CoA. The offending PP or Judge is also to be removed from office until this sentence is served.

Lady Lizabet, the provision for trial is not in the CoA charter but in the National Laws

Judge Llewelyn was asked to file charges against a citizen of Chester per CoA charter. He did not do so, a clear case of obstruction of justice. He is still the seated Judge of Chester and Duke Tazatron has not removed him from his position as required by Charter, nor filed the Contempt of Court charges against him.

As Judge I was asked to file nothing. The request for the first case vs. Red was sent to the PP who filled the case correctly
The request for the Obstruction case went to the Duke.

The post by the Hight Chief Justice was for obstruction on not using the fine that was suggested in the request on the case vs. Red. And has nothing to do with bringing or not bringing cases to court.

Whether you agree with these Charter rules or not, they are legal and completely within the right of the CoA.

Judges and PP are both powerful positions with much authority. As such, they are held to a higher standard of behavior. It is to them that we look to enforce our laws and punish the guilty. When they themselves ignore the very laws they are charged with upholding, they should be expected to accept the consequences of their actions.

My reasoning here is with respect to CoA Charter over Nation Law.

You are right about the Judges and PP having powerful positions, The King states as much in hie edicts

A judge must always bear in mind this fundamental principle: He must only act in the interests of the Renaissance Kingdoms game. These interests are rigorously defined by the interests of all the players (not solely of the majority of them), including the condemned. A judgement must be found that satisfies not only the plaintiffs but also the accused, who must be treated with enough respect that they are not disillusioned with the game and lose interest.

General principles of justice

A judge holds great power over thousands of Renaissance Kingdoms players ; along with that power goes a responsibility toward the other players, the game in general and the designers. If a judge abuses or misuses their power, it could gravely endanger the game's equilibrium, poison the atmosphere and damage the fragile structure that the designers made such an effort to construct. For these reasons, a judge must respect the following rules, which have the goal of framing and harmonising justice in the Kingdoms across all the duchies and counties as well as through time.

Lady Allikath

Please except my apology for interrupting your reasonable attempt to calm a situation that could easily get out of control, but a trial where the Judge has already been told what the judgement will be and sentence is not really a trial, it is a mechanic for finding someone guilty.

[arthur_loxley]

I think, people are attempting to manipulate legal loopholes to do as they wish.

Game reflects real life.

If you are found in contempt in a RL court, it has a direct and immedieate action.

As is the case in the Game version.

The result is immediate.

the mechanics require cooperation, the judge refusing to cooperate is in violation of the mandates of the king

As such the mandates of the king allow for and include the removal of the judge, additional fines against the judge, and up to eradication of the judge.

Abuse of power is a very dangerous line to follow in the game.

It destabilizes everything involved with the event.
Its why it allows for Eradication.

[arthur_loxley]

Lady Allikath

Please except my apology for interrupting your reasonable attempt to calm a situation that could easily get out of control, but a trial where the Judge has already been told what the judgement will be and sentence is not really a trial, it is a mechanic for finding someone guilty.

It is not a mechanic to find someone guilty so much as a mechanic to levy a penalty. They are already found guilty.
Whether we wish to admit it or not most trials are a mechanic to find someone guilty. If they were innocent a trial would not be needed in most cases.

Perhaps if you look at it from another perspective.
The right to trial does not apply because the individual is not being sentenced for violating law. The penalty is being assessed due to a violation of procedural protocol that the individual was aware of and agreed to follow when they stepped into the court room just like everyone else who walked into the courtroom willingly.
[OOC - Kinda like agreeing to the TOS in game and on the forum. An eradication or suspension results for a violation of protocol that was already agreed to.]

In addition the king has decreed HOP can assess national law.
The HOP created and ratified the COA charter which contains the penalty article in question.

Article 9 – Procedural Penalties

Those guilty of Contempt of Court shall be fined up to 10 pounds per incident.

Those guilty of obstruction of justice shall be imprisoned for one day. Furthermore those guilty of obstruction of justice may not appear in court representing another person for a 30 day period. These penalties will be laid after the case is decided.
If a county Public Prosecutor or Judge is charged with contempt, the Count(ess) of said county must appoint a new Public Prosecutor to file charges. The accused may no longer hold position of Public Prosecutor or Judge, until the case of contempt is resolved.

In all instances these cases will be handled by the County courts

Therefore this article allowing the COA justices to levy penalties for procedural violations is national law.
And this direction is part of that and national law as well.

In all instances these cases will be handled by the County courts

[arthur_loxley]

I havent had time to read all of this as of yet, i have a basic understanding of what each side is saying , suggesting debating etc .

One point that national law quoted , which Speaker Allikath quoted was ;

In all instances these cases will be handled by the County courts

The Charter only suggests that County Courts will "handle" hand outs or disciplinary charges .

What we must agree or hash out is , does handle mean trial , evaluate the case , Judge or does it mean this is a non-county participation hearing and it is a definite charge ?

Either way this Part of the charter needs clarity to state what it was mean to be .

[arthur_loxley]

Good point, Lord Salter...

In this instance definition of handle would be
to deal with or treat in a particular way.. the other definition being a means to carry an object wouldn't apply.

Maybe if the word used was apply or administer?

[arthur_loxley]

What is the problem, really?

There is a trial to enact the penalty.

A suit is filed, the PP presents the COA penalty as an indictment and the judge passes sentence and applies the COA penalty.
The evidence is there and presented.
If the individual who is being penalized wants to make a plea let them.
The evidence is irrefutable.
The COA determination of contempt or obstruction is the evidence.
The COA justices are witnesses.
If the PP wishes they can add the COA charter article giving the COA the power to enact penalties for contempt and obstruction as evidence.

Article 9 – Procedural Penalties

Those guilty of Contempt of Court shall be fined up to 10 pounds per incident.

Those guilty of obstruction of justice shall be imprisoned for one day. Furthermore those guilty of obstruction of justice may not appear in court representing another person for a 30 day period. These penalties will be laid after the case is decided.
If a county Public Prosecutor or Judge is charged with contempt, the Count(ess) of said county must appoint a new Public Prosecutor to file charges. The accused may no longer hold position of Public Prosecutor or Judge, until the case of contempt is resolved.

In all instances these cases will be handled by the County courts

I think this is being blown out of proportion. It does not violate the Chester legal corpus and the Chester county judge should have no problem with it.

tch tch tch I must Contradict you speaker of the HoP as the CoA has stated an indictment is in fact not proof of a crimminal action nor does the Pp stating anything in his indictment count as evidence this is the CoA's Findings if you doubt it go look at their verdicts

[arthur_loxley]

It is not an indictment.
It is the penalty handed down by the COA for an offense against the court.

[arthur_loxley]

Feeling like she is sounding like a broken record, she quietly asks, "At what point does the person charged with contempt of court get to explain his behavior?"

[arthur_loxley]

He does not. Simply by entering the courtroom, he agrees to behave in a certain fashion. If he does not live up to that agreement, the charge is handed down from the bench as a means of maintaining order. Because of the peculiarities of our system, the Court of Appeals is the final word on legal matters in England save the King, but must use the tools of the county courts in order to implement such rulings. The Court of Appeals is superior to the county courts and therefore their rulings must be obeyed or those judge's who disobey risk consequences upto eradication. Without the authority to maintain order, the Court of Appeals is useless.

[arthur_loxley]

Feeling like she is sounding like a broken record, she quietly asks, "At what point does the person charged with contempt of court get to explain his behavior?"

As a student of the law, let me put in my own opinions here.

When speaking about the CoA handing down verdicts and penalties for Contempt and Obstruction, we need to keep in mind a few things. The 'infractions' indicate that a person is not behaving, and the justices have already decided what needs to be done with them, according to the CoA Charter. Those guilty don't actually commit a 'crime' in the strictest sense, but they have gone over the line as acceptable CoA behavior is concerned. In almost every case, they have been warned. Many times, in some cases. In other cases, where a judge has failed to do as the CoA has instructed, then that judge is clearly violating the CoA charter, as well as the duties of a judge in upholding the authority of the CoA. The only reason that it has to be 'handled' by a lower court, is that the IG mechanics don't give the CoA any way to fine the offenders themselves. It simply has to be handled by a lower court to make it work in game. It is so simple. I can't believe this has gotten so far away from the simple cut and dried point.

To sum up:

It is not a real crime, rather a punishment handed down as a penalty for not following the CoA rules. The rules in the CoA charter override county laws. Even the Endowment for Humanities Act is not relevant here, as it is not a real crime in that sense.

No need for a 'trial' and a new decision by a county judge, as it is not a real crime. The CoA needs a PP to indict. The judge simply does the button pushing thing for the CoA. Simple.

Judges are duty bound to follow this procedure, or face harsh 'penalties' themselves.

I doubt that will get through to many who don't already understand, but I do hope some may see the light.

[arthur_loxley]

it is a penalty that cannot be done without an actual indictment you are wanting to call something, something else even though it remains the same


it was the coa who stated in thier rulings that contempt of court charges are a separate indictment and trial to allow the perpetrator to face the charges put forth

that statement does not mean just county contempt of court that means all contempt of court perhaps if they were more precise in choosing thier words over the issue what they meant and what they said is two different things it does seem


but I guess we can chaulk that up to the spirit of the law with the literalness of the law

[arthur_loxley]

IG mechanics do not allow the CoA to carry out the penalites so the onus is back to the County to "handle" the matter once they have been notified. Otherwise it would have been done.

You get your warning during the case, if you continue to be in contempt and don't take heed of the warning you might be lucky to get another warning but once you have been found in Contempt of Court by the CoA the decision is final, the penalty is written and the punishment is served. End of story, there is no recourse, no hearing no trials. Final

If anyone is going to step foot inside the CoA Courtrooms, it would be wise to read the CoA Charter first in future.

I am with you Philip.

[arthur_loxley]

"You mean the charter that keeps mysteriously changing?"

[arthur_loxley]

Do tell? Mysterious changes?

There have only been two small changes in the Charter from February - June's postings of the charter, both which were duscussed, voted on and passed in the HoP in May.

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